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Mechanics and Maintenance Shops

Maintenance STC's and major structure repair
Author Last Post
When teaching Skywagon operations, I will first caution the "student" not to use the ailerons on short final whether or not R/STOL is installed. The next time I see the yoke wiggling by them I simply hold the yoke rigid and tell them again to start using their feet. The rudder is much more effective and with no induced adverse yaw. Easy to demonstrate to the student. Same thing when going through turbulence. I teach "kick the wing down". There is a lot of gusty winds here in Western Colorado too! 

On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 10:25 AM, John C Cox (4810jc@gmail.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:
View/reply online       Reply to forum at MechanicsMaintenanceShops@skywagons.club       Reply directly to John C Cox at 4810jc@gmail.com
When I bought my 185, it came with a Robertson STOL kit. At the time I had over 600 hours in a C-180, so it wasn't an unfamiliar airframe. But, I soon came to hate the R/STOL. It was an issue for me. Trying to land with 3 notches of flap was a problem. With full flaps the lack of aileron authority was reduced, but still a factor. It simply drove me nuts, especially when landing in gusty cross-wind conditions -- very common in west Texas where I fly frequently. Then a more experienced (smarter) 185 driver told me to lift the drooping wing using rudders. Duh, why didn't I think of that. No problem. It just took a little practice. Still, I thought about either disengaging the R/STOL or buying a used set of wings. Luckily, I did neither and I am glad that I kept my R/STOL. Over time I got used to the ailerons. Kicking a wing up using rudders has become second nature. Now I don't think about it. More importantly, I came to greatly appreciate the STOL characteristics of the Robertson kit. I don't want to start an email debate, but in my humble opinion no other STOL conversion comes close in terms of performance. I was interested to hear Rob's experience with adding VGs. A very good idea and one that I will definitely check out. Anyway, I suggest giving it some time. Try adding the VGs. I think you might come to really appreciate the R/STOL. Good luck.

John Cox
Roy Ranch TS21

-----Original Message-----
From: mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2018 8:31 AM
To: Mechanics and Maintenance Shops <MechanicsMaintenanceShops@skywagons.club>
Subject: re: Maintenance STC's and major structure repair <<$200386257050$>>




I disabled my R/STOL for a brief test period. It was quite easy - just remove the "mixer" pushrod and place a bolt through the "alignment" hole which goes through the upper/lower skins and the pulley. This is the same hole used in adjusting the R/STOL mechanism during installation. You will then have normal ailerons. However I am quite happy with R/STOL, especially after adding the Micro VG's which restored the low (approach) speed aileron authority. I measured this improvement by timing aileron roll speed before/after installation while at 60 kts. I also measured approach speed Angle of Attack improvement when I added the horizontal stab VG's. I published these findings in the old Skywagon.org forum. Marginal stall speed improvement was only seen when performing zero-flap stalls, as the drooping ailerons overshadowed VG stall aerodynamic improvement in that area, but they sure help airflow over the ailerons. I wish the GoPro had been invented then as I would have added yarn tufts and watch them. That said, I really enjoy demonstrating this control authority by performing figure 8 turning maneuvers with 30 degrees of bank while in stall. Just be sure you keep the ball centered, but it is quite impressive when compared to a stock 'wagon wing.


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:27 PM, John Bentley (johnbat41654@gmail.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:
View/reply online Reply to forum at MechanicsMaintenanceShops@skywagons.club Reply directly to John Bentley at johnbat41654@gmail.com Doug,
If you want to return the aircraft back to original or you just want to remove the aileron/flap interconnect I would think that there should be some paperwork in with all your aircraft records like installation drawings and STC/337. I do not think that Sierra Industries supports the STC anymore. Like any STC in order to install, it must be done in accordance with the installation drawings and instructions so if you remove part of the kit it now does not conform to the STC. So say you remove the droop in the ailerons but still have the cuff the question now becomes is the installation legal, or we might say airworthy? That decision is up to the mechanic signing off on the work. I am not sure if the cuff is a separate STC or if the aileron droop, fence, and cuff go together. You might call Seaplanes North 907 248 7070 I think they have some info. It would be a project to remove and the added value of the Robertson STOL kit is in the eye of the beholder. The Sportsman cuff is probably the best STOL kit to add, then VG's.
If you need a quote on removal let me know.
Thanks John Bentley
www.bentleyair.com


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 1:28 PM, Doug Grande (dgrande@qcmfginc.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:
View/reply online Reply to forum at MechanicsMaintenanceShops@skywagons.club Reply directly to Doug Grande at dgrande@qcmfginc.comHey John, I'm a new Skywagon owner (Maule owner previously) and was wondering if you had any info you'd be willing to share on disconnecting the Robertson STOL kit?
I know Sierra Industries bought Robertson but I've been unable to contact them.
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks
Doug Grande
6199800387





 
When I bought my 185, it came with a Robertson STOL kit. At the time I had over 600 hours in a C-180, so it wasn't an unfamiliar airframe. But, I soon came to hate the R/STOL. It was an issue for me. Trying to land with 3 notches of flap was a problem. With full flaps the lack of aileron authority was reduced, but still a factor. It simply drove me nuts, especially when landing in gusty cross-wind conditions -- very common in west Texas where I fly frequently. Then a more experienced (smarter) 185 driver told me to lift the drooping wing using rudders. Duh, why didn't I think of that. No problem. It just took a little practice. Still, I thought about either disengaging the R/STOL or buying a used set of wings. Luckily, I did neither and I am glad that I kept my R/STOL. Over time I got used to the ailerons. Kicking a wing up using rudders has become second nature. Now I don't think about it. More importantly, I came to greatly appreciate the STOL characteristics of the Robertson kit. I don't want to start an email debate, but in my humble opinion no other STOL conversion comes close in terms of performance. I was interested to hear Rob's experience with adding VGs. A very good idea and one that I will definitely check out. Anyway, I suggest giving it some time. Try adding the VGs. I think you might come to really appreciate the R/STOL. Good luck.

John Cox
Roy Ranch TS21

-----Original Message-----
From: mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2018 8:31 AM
To: Mechanics and Maintenance Shops <MechanicsMaintenanceShops@skywagons.club>
Subject: re: Maintenance STC's and major structure repair <<$200386257050$>>




I disabled my R/STOL for a brief test period. It was quite easy - just remove the "mixer" pushrod and place a bolt through the "alignment" hole which goes through the upper/lower skins and the pulley. This is the same hole used in adjusting the R/STOL mechanism during installation. You will then have normal ailerons. However I am quite happy with R/STOL, especially after adding the Micro VG's which restored the low (approach) speed aileron authority. I measured this improvement by timing aileron roll speed before/after installation while at 60 kts. I also measured approach speed Angle of Attack improvement when I added the horizontal stab VG's. I published these findings in the old Skywagon.org forum. Marginal stall speed improvement was only seen when performing zero-flap stalls, as the drooping ailerons overshadowed VG stall aerodynamic improvement in that area, but they sure help airflow over the ailerons. I wish the GoPro had been invented then as I would have added yarn tufts and watch them. That said, I really enjoy demonstrating this control authority by performing figure 8 turning maneuvers with 30 degrees of bank while in stall. Just be sure you keep the ball centered, but it is quite impressive when compared to a stock 'wagon wing.


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:27 PM, John Bentley (johnbat41654@gmail.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:
View/reply online Reply to forum at MechanicsMaintenanceShops@skywagons.club Reply directly to John Bentley at johnbat41654@gmail.com Doug,
If you want to return the aircraft back to original or you just want to remove the aileron/flap interconnect I would think that there should be some paperwork in with all your aircraft records like installation drawings and STC/337. I do not think that Sierra Industries supports the STC anymore. Like any STC in order to install, it must be done in accordance with the installation drawings and instructions so if you remove part of the kit it now does not conform to the STC. So say you remove the droop in the ailerons but still have the cuff the question now becomes is the installation legal, or we might say airworthy? That decision is up to the mechanic signing off on the work. I am not sure if the cuff is a separate STC or if the aileron droop, fence, and cuff go together. You might call Seaplanes North 907 248 7070 I think they have some info. It would be a project to remove and the added value of the Robertson STOL kit is in the eye of the beholder. The Sportsman cuff is probably the best STOL kit to add, then VG's.
If you need a quote on removal let me know.
Thanks John Bentley
www.bentleyair.com


On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 1:28 PM, Doug Grande (dgrande@qcmfginc.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:
View/reply online Reply to forum at MechanicsMaintenanceShops@skywagons.club Reply directly to Doug Grande at dgrande@qcmfginc.comHey John, I'm a new Skywagon owner (Maule owner previously) and was wondering if you had any info you'd be willing to share on disconnecting the Robertson STOL kit?
I know Sierra Industries bought Robertson but I've been unable to contact them.
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks
Doug Grande
6199800387




 
I disabled my R/STOL for a brief test period. It was quite easy - just remove the "mixer" pushrod and place a bolt through the "alignment" hole which goes through the upper/lower skins and the pulley. This is the same hole used in adjusting the R/STOL mechanism during installation. You will then have normal ailerons. 

However I am quite happy with R/STOL, especially after adding the Micro VG's which restored the low (approach) speed aileron authority. I measured this improvement by timing aileron roll speed before/after installation while at 60 kts. I also measured approach speed Angle of Attack improvement when I added the horizontal stab VG's. I published these findings in the old Skywagon.org forum. Marginal stall speed improvement was only seen when performing zero-flap stalls, as the drooping ailerons overshadowed VG stall aerodynamic improvement in that area, but they sure help airflow over the ailerons. I wish the GoPro had been invented then as I would have added yarn tufts and watch them.  

That said, I really enjoy demonstrating this control authority by performing figure 8 turning maneuvers with 30 degrees of bank while in stall. Just be sure you keep the ball centered, but it is quite impressive when compared to a stock 'wagon wing. 



On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 6:27 PM, John Bentley (johnbat41654@gmail.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:
View/reply online       Reply to forum at MechanicsMaintenanceShops@skywagons.club       Reply directly to John Bentley at johnbat41654@gmail.com
   Doug,

    If you want to return the aircraft back to original or you just want to remove the aileron/flap interconnect I would think that there should be some paperwork in with all your aircraft records like installation drawings and STC/337. I do not think that Sierra Industries supports the STC anymore. Like any STC in order to install, it must be done in accordance with the installation drawings and instructions so if you remove part of the kit it now does not conform to the STC. So say you remove the droop in the ailerons but still have the cuff the question now becomes is the installation legal, or we might say airworthy? That decision is up to the mechanic signing off on the work. I am not sure if the cuff is a separate STC or if the aileron droop, fence, and cuff go together. You might call Seaplanes North 907 248 7070 I think they have some info. It would be a project to remove and the added value of the Robertson STOL kit is in the eye of the beholder. The Sportsman cuff is probably the best STOL kit to add, then VG's.

              If you need a quote on removal let me know.

                Thanks
                          John Bentley

                                         www.bentleyair.com

                

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 1:28 PM, Doug Grande (dgrande@qcmfginc.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:
View/reply online       Reply to forum at MechanicsMaintenanceShops@skywagons.club       Reply directly to Doug Grande at dgrande@qcmfginc.com
Hey John,
I'm a new Skywagon owner (Maule owner previously) and was wondering if you had any info you'd be willing to share on disconnecting the Robertson STOL kit?
I know Sierra Industries bought Robertson but I've been unable to contact them.
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks
Doug Grande
6199800387


 
   Doug,

    If you want to return the aircraft back to original or you just want to remove the aileron/flap interconnect I would think that there should be some paperwork in with all your aircraft records like installation drawings and STC/337. I do not think that Sierra Industries supports the STC anymore. Like any STC in order to install, it must be done in accordance with the installation drawings and instructions so if you remove part of the kit it now does not conform to the STC. So say you remove the droop in the ailerons but still have the cuff the question now becomes is the installation legal, or we might say airworthy? That decision is up to the mechanic signing off on the work. I am not sure if the cuff is a separate STC or if the aileron droop, fence, and cuff go together. You might call Seaplanes North 907 248 7070 I think they have some info. It would be a project to remove and the added value of the Robertson STOL kit is in the eye of the beholder. The Sportsman cuff is probably the best STOL kit to add, then VG's.

              If you need a quote on removal let me know.

                Thanks
                          John Bentley

                                         www.bentleyair.com

                

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 1:28 PM, Doug Grande (dgrande@qcmfginc.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:
View/reply online       Reply to forum at MechanicsMaintenanceShops@skywagons.club       Reply directly to Doug Grande at dgrande@qcmfginc.com
Hey John,
I'm a new Skywagon owner (Maule owner previously) and was wondering if you had any info you'd be willing to share on disconnecting the Robertson STOL kit?
I know Sierra Industries bought Robertson but I've been unable to contact them.
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks
Doug Grande
6199800387

 
Hey John,
I'm a new Skywagon owner (Maule owner previously) and was wondering if you had any info you'd be willing to share on disconnecting the Robertson STOL kit?
I know Sierra Industries bought Robertson but I've been unable to contact them.
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks
Doug Grande
6199800387
 

   Cessna 180 Only/Bentley Air is a maintenance shop providing installation of all STC's, for the Cessna 180/185 aircraft, parts and major sheet metal repair. Currently rebuilding a 1953 180, some modifications include Baggage door, extended baggage, float kit, new sheet metal, one piece windshield, new panel, V brace, P Ponk O-470-50, complete rewire, and the list goes on. Call for quotes on any STC, aivonics installation or repairs, located in Bend Oregon. Call 541 318 8604.
  Next project in the pipe is a 1956 180 needing lots of new metal...

Cessna 180 only
Bentley Air
John Bentley
 
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