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Wanted - Aircraft

Compare early/late model 180s?
Author Last Post
It has a U 230hp.
 
Purty. Still have the A or J in her or did they retain the dual exhaust with a 230HP? 

Randy

Sent by Lilly and Rylan's Campa

On Jan 30, 2017, at 6:26 PM, Harper Goodwin (ghgoodwin2@gmail.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:

I have been in search of a taildragger of some sort and over the last few months I have asked questions about various airplanes, desirables in said airplanes and opinions in general. I want to thank all of you for their input, opinions and such. I probably looked at 10 airplanes in person, Tulsa Super Cub, McAllen for Husky's, Dumas, AR a Maule M4, Lake Providence, LA a Scout, a C185 in Texas and 3 Cessna 180's in Houston, Marquette, MI and Buffalo, WY. I probably talked with at least 15 other owners with aircraft for sale. Along the way I have met some really wonderful people and have discovered that this type of flying, in this type of airplane is a pretty small world. Lots of fun. In the end, my 6'5" frame narrowed the field considerably. 
I have settled on a very nice 1954 Cessna 180 and will pick it up in a week or so. Soon I will be asking more questions about that, but for the time being please know that I appreciate all of the feedback.
Thank you and come see the newest back country airfield brought to you by the RAF. Trigger Gap Airfield, 3 miles south of 4M1 in NW Arkansas. On Pension Mountain, near the Kings River, 8 miles from the very cool Victorian village of Eureka Springs, AR. And let me know you are coming, we will roll out the red carpet for you......well sorta.
Attachment(s):
IMG_1130_copy.jpg (391.5 KB)
 
I have been in search of a taildragger of some sort and over the last few months I have asked questions about various airplanes, desirables in said airplanes and opinions in general. I want to thank all of you for their input, opinions and such. I probably looked at 10 airplanes in person, Tulsa Super Cub, McAllen for Husky's, Dumas, AR a Maule M4, Lake Providence, LA a Scout, a C185 in Texas and 3 Cessna 180's in Houston, Marquette, MI and Buffalo, WY. I probably talked with at least 15 other owners with aircraft for sale. Along the way I have met some really wonderful people and have discovered that this type of flying, in this type of airplane is a pretty small world. Lots of fun. In the end, my 6'5" frame narrowed the field considerably. 
I have settled on a very nice 1954 Cessna 180 and will pick it up in a week or so. Soon I will be asking more questions about that, but for the time being please know that I appreciate all of the feedback.
Thank you and come see the newest back country airfield brought to you by the RAF. Trigger Gap Airfield, 3 miles south of 4M1 in NW Arkansas. On Pension Mountain, near the Kings River, 8 miles from the very cool Victorian village of Eureka Springs, AR. And let me know you are coming, we will roll out the red carpet for you......well sorta.
 

Attachment(s):
Since you referenced the 170, 180, and 185, I will answer the questions referring to all three. Forget Maules!  I have owned a 1951 170A, 1958 180A later converted to the P-Ponk O470-50 520 engine upgrade, and a 1973 A185F over the years so am fairly familiar with all three and engine conversions.

From original post:
Anyway a few specific questions please:


What is the real difference between the (170) 180 and 185 fuselage?

-There is no difference in floor area and shape between the 170, 180, and 185, they are the same for all years and models.

-The 170 and early 180 have the same cabin size and shape.
-The main difference in cabin size and shape between the 170/early 180, and the 1964 and later 180 and all 185 is the top of the cabin is raised a few inches (starting aft of the wing spar continuing to the aft standard baggage bulkhead) for more 3rd seat headroom in the later planes. 170 and early 180 have the wing airfoil extend over the cabin to the wing trailing edge, the 1964 and later 180/185 have a flat profile in that area to the aft standard baggage bulkhead.


 
Pros/cons of the 170/early 180 fuselage as opposed to the 185?

-As far as I know (and I'm not fluent on internal structure) the main visual difference is none of the 170 had a baggage door which was added on the 180/185 and the 170/early 180 had two side windows which was increased to 3 side windows on the 1964 and later 180 and all 185. There is no doubt the internal structure was beefed up with increasing gross weights. The designs are all very robust for each particular model, again beefed-up with increasing gross weight.



Do they fly that differently?

-The 170 has the lightest and crispest flying qualities (due to its lighter weight and lower Vne), than the early 180, and heaviest controls are on the late 180/185. I personally think Cessna engineers did that on purpose to impede over-controlling at higher speeds and I also think that is a good thing.
-They all have very nice handling qualities and purchase decisions should be based on other factors. Buy the best plane you can afford, mods and restoration are very expensive and take the plane out of service for installation. I like flying them better than working on them!

-The 170, 180, and 185 all have essentially the same wing planform and ailerons. The lift struts and internal wing structure are beefed up with increased gross weight.
-170 (fabric wing) and 170A have simple hinged flaps. 170B/180/185 have the improved "Para-Lift" semi-Fowler flaps (copied from the Bonanza) which are very effective.
-170 has a rounded tail (horizontal and vert) with fixed horizontal stab and elevator trailing edge pitch trim, 180/185 has squared tail with pitch trim controlled by jack screws moving the horizon stab leading edge up and down which is more effective and less drag than the 170.


What year/model was the elevator down spring added? 
Would you rather have one with the down spring or not?
Does it fly that differently?

-No comment. Read about changes/differences in the "History" section.




Seems as though there are a couple of back seat options. Normally we would have the back seat out for camping gear and such. Is the seat easy to take out? Do most have that upper tray behind the back seats? Is it easily removed?

-Bench seat, removable "toad stool" Cessna jump seats, sling seat, or Atlee Dodge/BAS or Kenmore removable rear seats are all options and totally 
dependent on what the owner desires, how comfortable you want to make the rear passengers, or what the owner needs for their operations.
-The bench seat is the hardest and most cumbersome to remove and replace. Some argue an A&P logbook entry is required every time it is removed/replaced.
-Cessna toad stools are quick and easy but have virtually no legroom and are not comfortable.
-Sling seats are very easy to install/remove, are comfortable but not STC'd and require a field approval on FAA Form 337 with a Block 3 sign-off.
- Atlee Dodge/BAS STCd folding rear seats are also small and fold up against the side walls as well as being removable.
-Kenmore 206 middle seat conversion allows 14 different p/n 206/207 middle seats to be used. they are quickly removable on rear seat tracks and can vary from small fold-down-flat seats which fit nicely in the extended baggage area to full-size comfortable reclining seats the same size as the front seats only sitting a few inches lower.



So far the undisputed desirables are pull handles and pponk gear upgrade. Any other suggestions?

-Sportsman and Wing-X mods are both desirable to increase gross weight, low speed controlability, lower stall speed, and improve high altitude and heavy load flying qualities although they will slow the plane down a knot or two in cruise.
-Extended baggage is a must for any of the airplanes, take out the baggage area hat shelf, it is not needed and prevents access to the extended baggage.
-For serious bush flying an instrument panel V-Brace of some sort is necessary to eliminate fuselage warping on rough ground. There are several types, Cessna small-dia tubing (most flimsy and too weak for a hand-hold), Atlee Dodge 3/4" tubing (best in my opinion and strong enough to use as a hand-hold) or cables attached from wing spar to motor mount bolts (which are probably the strongest but you can't use them for a hand-hold).
-Some guys are running with a stripped-out interior with maybe some foam insulation in selected areas for noise reduction. Done right it looks really good.
-As far as the instrument panel is concerned, now days the necessities include moving map GPS, fuel flow computer, and all-cylinder engine analyzer. Those three things take out the majority of airborne anxiety.
-There are many types of larger tire/wheel conversions which are required for whatever flying you choose to do and are easy to research . A larger tailwheel is required for serious bush flying.
-Digital tachs that show mag faults are also very desirable such as the Horizon P1000.
-Pulse lights with LED bulbs are becoming very popular.
-ADSB is another potential $5000 hit that will have to be installed by 2020.



Any other suggestions?
The 170 with a stock 145hp engine is fine for airport to airport and off-airport work at longer fields but not enough hp for serious bush flying, it is not a short field airplane although it handles rough fields just fine.
-The 180hp Lycoming O-360 conversion makes a much better bush plane but lack of fuel capacity is an issue with the larger engine.
-If you can find one of the rare 210hp Continental IO-360 conversions, then you can equal or exceed the performance of the stock 180, but again, unless C175 wings are installed with larger gas tanks, lack of fuel is still an issue.
-On my stock 170 and stock 180 the useful load was very close to the same, within 100lbs, but at gross weights, performance was vastly better in the 180.
-Any of the engine horsepower upgrade conversions are desirable and may be required depending on your type of flying.

Hope some of this helps.
 
I have owned a 1957 180 now for 18 years. It was the first one to have WingX extensions which I highly recommend. It also came with a Horton STOL, Bas shoulder straps, and a Reif heater system.

I added the fuselage pull handles, Pponk gear brace upgrade and 185 gear legs with larger tires, and a one piece windshield.

I have 2870s Edo straight floats with hatches and fixed penetration wheel skis.

I originally selected the early model because of the operating costs are less and the technology in the aircraft is much simpler.

I would not go for a 54 model as it has a 225 hp engine and would also not select a post 63 180 because it has a 185 fuselage with a 230 hp engine which is underpowered when on floats in my personal view.

I talked to a lot of bush pilots as well and many of them felt the early model 180s were the best value for commercial operations but also the nicest to fly.

Arnold CF-KAI




Sent from my ASUS


-------- Original Message --------
From:"Harper Goodwin (ghgoodwin2@gmail.com)"
Sent:Sat, 31 Dec 2016 13:38:25 -0500
Subject:Compare early/late model 180s? <$163081396383$>>

I am a new member and have decided to purchase a taildragger to access the many back country airstrips in NW Arkansas with 1 or 2 trips out west a year. Camping, fishing and just having fun kind of stuff. I own a T210 which I will keep for going efficiently from A to B. I have recently flown a 1956 180 and loved how light on the controls it was and how nice it flew. The 180 is probably going to be the airplane for me (don't need a 185) but I am still looking at Maule's and 170B's. Any thoughts on those competitors would be appreciated. 

Anyway a few specific questions please:

What is the real difference between the 180 and 185 fuselage?
Pros/cons of the 180 fuselage as opposed to the 185?
Do they fly that differently?

What year/model was the elevator down spring added? 
Would you rather have one with the down spring or not?
Does it fly that differently?

Seems as though there are a couple of back seat options. Normally we would have the back seat out for camping gear and such. Is the seat easy to take out? Do most have that upper tray behind the back seats? Is it easily removed?

So far the undisputed desirables are pull handles and pponk gear upgrade. Any other suggestions?

I am looking at all of the for sale online sites but if anyone knows of a good 180 I would be happy to hear about it. I don't feel I need anything but the stock engine and don't mind doing an upgrade or two but not looking for a "bargain" that I have to put a lot of money into. 
Thanks in advance.
 
Can't really go wrong with a 180 or 185.  Both haul a lot.
One thing to keep in mind is HP.  When you are talking about short strips, especially in mountains, canyons etc.  It is mostly horsepower that is a key requirement.
Frankly, I love a C170, my first airplane.  But, would not recommend it with the stock engine.  By the time you and a buddy climb in with all the camping gear, you are marginal.  The 170 can easily carry all that (great wing) when using long runways.  But, getting out of a short strip, maybe with higher altitude and temps, you are sadly under powered.
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 10:38 AM
Subject: Compare early/late model 180s? <<$163081396383$>>

I am a new member and have decided to purchase a taildragger to access the many back country airstrips in NW Arkansas with 1 or 2 trips out west a year. Camping, fishing and just having fun kind of stuff. I own a T210 which I will keep for going efficiently from A to B. I have recently flown a 1956 180 and loved how light on the controls it was and how nice it flew. The 180 is probably going to be the airplane for me (don't need a 185) but I am still looking at Maule's and 170B's. Any thoughts on those competitors would be appreciated. 

Anyway a few specific questions please:

What is the real difference between the 180 and 185 fuselage?
Pros/cons of the 180 fuselage as opposed to the 185?
Do they fly that differently?

What year/model was the elevator down spring added? 
Would you rather have one with the down spring or not?
Does it fly that differently?

Seems as though there are a couple of back seat options. Normally we would have the back seat out for camping gear and such. Is the seat easy to take out? Do most have that upper tray behind the back seats? Is it easily removed?

So far the undisputed desirables are pull handles and pponk gear upgrade. Any other suggestions?

I am looking at all of the for sale online sites but if anyone knows of a good 180 I would be happy to hear about it. I don't feel I need anything but the stock engine and don't mind doing an upgrade or two but not looking for a "bargain" that I have to put a lot of money into. 
Thanks in advance.



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Take a look at  skylaneaircraftsales.com
 
I am a new member and have decided to purchase a taildragger to access the many back country airstrips in NW Arkansas with 1 or 2 trips out west a year. Camping, fishing and just having fun kind of stuff. I own a T210 which I will keep for going efficiently from A to B. I have recently flown a 1956 180 and loved how light on the controls it was and how nice it flew. The 180 is probably going to be the airplane for me (don't need a 185) but I am still looking at Maule's and 170B's. Any thoughts on those competitors would be appreciated. 

Anyway a few specific questions please:

What is the real difference between the 180 and 185 fuselage?
Pros/cons of the 180 fuselage as opposed to the 185?
Do they fly that differently?

What year/model was the elevator down spring added? 
Would you rather have one with the down spring or not?
Does it fly that differently?

Seems as though there are a couple of back seat options. Normally we would have the back seat out for camping gear and such. Is the seat easy to take out? Do most have that upper tray behind the back seats? Is it easily removed?

So far the undisputed desirables are pull handles and pponk gear upgrade. Any other suggestions?

I am looking at all of the for sale online sites but if anyone knows of a good 180 I would be happy to hear about it. I don't feel I need anything but the stock engine and don't mind doing an upgrade or two but not looking for a "bargain" that I have to put a lot of money into. 
Thanks in advance.
 
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