Skip to main content
Not editable in Design Mode. Switch to HTML mode

How to use the Forums as ListServ Emails


Click Here To Learn How
Welcome to the Club Photo Albums Page. By default only the most recently updated photos are shown in the list below. To see all photo albums click on the Search Looking Glass icon to the right and change your selection. 

Avionics - Certificated

ADS-B
Author Last Post
Pretty well said Paul.  If there are 2 aircraft in the same airspace, and one is ADS-B equipped, with both In-Out, and the other has nothing, in most airspace, neither will see the other unless it is via actual eye contact.  The ADS-B Program will work, with both being equipped, even in the non-GBT environment though.

Jim
N2393C
54’ 180

On Jun 13, 2018, at 12:21 PM, pnb987pb (pnb987pb@me.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:

Another thing to consider is that some aircraft operations DO NOT require ADS-B.  Many aircraft who don’t operate in controlled airspace will not equip. They’re just at risk for an accident as an ADS-B equipped aircraft.

I installed a 406 ELT tied into my Garmin 496. Will self-activate under G loading or can be activated from the instrument panel and transmit my exact coordinates. I also carry a SPOT 2 PLB, signal flare, mirror, survival kit, wearable portable GPS, handheld radio, extra batteries, etc. 

If there is one thing that I have learned from combat operations, it’s that the most well thought out plan usually doesn’t survive first contact with the enemy — or the environment. 

The belt and suspenders approach is best. Has worked well for fat men for hundreds of years. 😂

Paul Brown

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 13, 2018, at 11:01, hilltop180 (hilltop180@hotmail.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:

My comment was in response to a previous comment about satellite ADS-B being in service at some point. I realize they aren't there yet but when satellites are in the system, there is no reason ELTs should still be required. ELTs are functionally obsolete compared to ADS-B accuracy. And how long will the FAA drag their heels when satellite ADS-B is in operation? With all the inertia at rest in the FAA it will probably be years unless prodded by enough folks.

 
Another thing to consider is that some aircraft operations DO NOT require ADS-B.  Many aircraft who don’t operate in controlled airspace will not equip. They’re just at risk for an accident as an ADS-B equipped aircraft.

I installed a 406 ELT tied into my Garmin 496. Will self-activate under G loading or can be activated from the instrument panel and transmit my exact coordinates. I also carry a SPOT 2 PLB, signal flare, mirror, survival kit, wearable portable GPS, handheld radio, extra batteries, etc. 

If there is one thing that I have learned from combat operations, it’s that the most well thought out plan usually doesn’t survive first contact with the enemy — or the environment. 

The belt and suspenders approach is best. Has worked well for fat men for hundreds of years. 😂

Paul Brown

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 13, 2018, at 11:01, hilltop180 (hilltop180@hotmail.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:

My comment was in response to a previous comment about satellite ADS-B being in service at some point. I realize they aren't there yet but when satellites are in the system, there is no reason ELTs should still be required. ELTs are functionally obsolete compared to ADS-B accuracy. And how long will the FAA drag their heels when satellite ADS-B is in operation? With all the inertia at rest in the FAA it will probably be years unless prodded by enough folks.
 
My comment was in response to a previous comment about satellite ADS-B being in service at some point. I realize they aren't there yet but when satellites are in the system, there is no reason ELTs should still be required. ELTs are functionally obsolete compared to ADS-B accuracy. And how long will the FAA drag their heels when satellite ADS-B is in operation? With all the inertia at rest in the FAA it will probably be years unless prodded by enough folks.
 
Good point, but, when you look at the low altitude coverage map, you were able to see the lack of coverage throughout the lower 48 states, let alone, the wide expanses of Alaska. When we designed the system, in Project Capstone, we attempted to address this. We had a group of test aircraft equipped for satellite transmission. This provided very accurate flight following, but the cost was very high to use the satellites, thus, we felt that until the costs were brought down via a packet coverage, that this should be pursued in the future, and not discarded. 

ADS-B has a history of providing “saves”, by being able to provide last known lat/long position reports for overdue aircraft, thus reducing Search and Rescue efforts from potentially days or weeks, to minutes, or hours. 

Until the costs come down, ELT beacons (406 and PLB’s), will be required to provide coverage for emergency locating needs and life saving locating abilities for Search and Rescue. 

Jim Hill
N2393C
54’ 180
Alaska

On Jun 12, 2018, at 23:57, hilltop180 (hilltop180@hotmail.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:

So this should finally be the end of requiring ELTs in ADS-B equipped airplanes since ADS-B gives exact location. What are the chances the FAA will figure this out and make the change?
 
Removing the requirement for ELTs will require an act of Congress, since
that is where the requirement originated!


On 6/13/2018 3:30 AM, pnb987pb (pnb987pb@me.com) wrote:
>
>
>
> Apples and oranges in my opinion.
> Coverage isn’t there yet either. Here’s the 500’ AGL coverage. Pretty slim.
> Paul Brown
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> On Jun 12, 2018, at 23:57, hilltop180 (hilltop180@hotmail.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:
>
> So this should finally be the end of requiring ELTs in ADS-B equipped airplanes since ADS-B gives exact location. What are the chances the FAA will figure this out and make the change?
>
>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<<
> You have received this message as a member of: International 180/185 Club, Inc
> Change preferences (including opt-out): https://SkywagonsClub.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=13&club_id=669928
>
>
 
Apples and oranges in my opinion.

Coverage isn’t there yet either. Here’s the 500’ AGL coverage. Pretty slim. 

Paul Brown

image1.jpeg

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 12, 2018, at 23:57, hilltop180 (hilltop180@hotmail.com) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:

So this should finally be the end of requiring ELTs in ADS-B equipped airplanes since ADS-B gives exact location. What are the chances the FAA will figure this out and make the change?
 
So will this finally be the end of requiring ELTs in ADS-B equipped airplanes? Since ADS-B gives exact location what are the chances the FAA will figure this out and make the change?
 
For those interested, here is the latest update from the ADS-B Program Meeting in Anchorage:



Jim Hill
N2393C
54'180
 
The latest information that I have is that the satellite will retransmit both 977 Mhz and 1090ES.  1090ES is still required from FL180 and above.

Jim Hill
N2393C
54'180
 

Thanks for the update. Will these Sats be using 978 or 1090 or both? I wonder how this will effect the need for mode S either above 18000, and for use outside of the US. Will this mean an aircraft won't need to send out on both frequencies? Just need one or the other?

 
Any insight?
 
Satellite ADS-B Monitoring Now on the Horizon

Iridium Communications on June 1 completed the first successful integration of the Aireon payload on an Iridium Next satellite. The successful linkup marks a key milestone in the effort to create a system of satellite-based ADS-B receivers in each of Iridium’s 66 next-generation satellites.

Iridium Next is scheduled to launch between 2015 and 2017, with full Aireon ADS-B service expected to come online in 2018. In partnership with Nav Canada, ENAV, IAA, Naviair and Iridium Communications, the Aireon space-based ADS-B system will make all ADS-B equipped aircraft visible anywhere on the planet.

Jim Hill
N2393C
54'180
 

The FAA says if airlines get a break on the timing of ADS-B compliance, it won't spread to GA. In a statement issued to AVweb late Thursday, the agency confirmed it's considering an application from Airlines for America (A4A) to allow an extra five years for full compliance by the operators of up to 6,000 airliners because it says the gear necessary to comply (WAAS capability) won't be available in time. The agency has not made a decision on the application but regardless of what it decides on that, in a follow-up email the agency confirmed there are currently no plans for any extension for compliance for more than 250,000 general aviation aircraft that need new equipment. Both AOPA and EAA are aware of the issue. AOPA says the difference is that there are plenty of options available for GA owners to comply. The FAA statement follows in its entirety.

FAA Statement

The FAA has completed the deployment of ADS-B ground radios and has called on aviation users to equip their aircraft in advance of the Jan 1, 2020 mandate. The air carrier community identified a concern with the availability and schedule for upgraded GPS receivers, which are one component of the ADS-B Out system.

Although many airlines equipped early on with GPS as part of the transition to satellite-based navigation, the early equippers do not have the latest GPS receivers. Those early-generation GPS receivers may experience brief outages of the FAA’s required performance for ADS-B Out. Airplane manufacturers are upgrading GPS receivers across airplane models, but have said the upgraded receivers will not be available until 2018 to 2020. Airlines for America (A4A), which represents many of the major airlines, has requested an exemption so airlines that equipped early can transition to the upgraded equipment over a five-year period. The airlines are proposing that the FAA could use backup radar or an airline could reschedule a flight if GPS outages are too frequent. The FAA is reviewing A4A’s petition and will consider all public comments before determining whether to grant or deny the petition.



Jim Hill
N2393C
54'180
 
Aircraft safety would also be increased by requiring all aircraft to have 406 ELT, mode A thru Z transponders, ADS-B in out and sideways, sat radio & telephone, and be under positive radar control (via sat tracking & sat coms--including video feed of the aircraft flight deck) at all times. Safety would also be increased by just grounding all of us.
 
IMHO except within class A (& maybe class B) airspace, ADS-B at least in my region is kind of like ethanolized gasoline-- a solution in search of a problem. If you like it, great-- get it. But please don't force it on me.
 
While I can't forecast what the FAA will or will not due about possible extensions, I can say that back in the late 90's, we had an airplane that was reported missing on a flight near Mount McKinley.  The ensuing search ended up costing more money, by the time that it was finally found, than it would have cost to have installed ADS-B, "In, and Out" transceivers, in each and every aircraft in the State of Alaska at the time.  This would have allowed SAR to simply fly directly to the last known lat/long, as reported by the ADS-B, and conclude the Search and Rescue Operation.  We attempted to push this sort of reasoning, but it was pointed out by then Senator Stevens, that the non-flying public would have gone bonkers (or some other term) at tax payers dollars being used to finance the aircraft owner.  The fact that they, the taxpayer, will pay untold dollars for upcoming SAR activities, was beside the facts.  "Just don't let those wealthy aircraft owners" get something for free!
 
ADS-B, while not perfect, does prevent air-to-air collisions, provide updated weather in the cockpit, and we did prove in Alaska, that in the future, will be able to provide live video feed from the passes or airports in your flight route, so that the pilot can assess the flight conditions throughout the flight.  The system and all of its benefits, can only be fully appreciated and utilized, if all aircraft are equipped.  Otherwise, the one that isn't, will be the one that is in conflict with you at some point.

Jim Hill
N2393C
54'180
 
My solution: grant the time extension for the airliners, and eliminate the ADS-B requirement(s) for operating in other than inside class A or B airspace.
 
Wouldn't it be funny if the airliners (which is who really needs the ADS-B)  were granted the time extension, but GA (which IMHO doesn't need it) still had to comply by the original 2020 date?
 

The FAA may be considering some kind of extension on the 2020 deadline for equipage with ADS-B-Out but it's not been confirmed by the FAA whether it's in fact being considered and what form it might take. If some relief is in the works, it will be at the request of the airlines. Aviation Week has published a story quoting various airline officials as telling an April conference that a five-year "grace period" on full compliance with the ADS-B mandate had been proposed by the airlines and was now under active consideration by the FAA. AVweb contacted the FAA to see if similar consideration might be extended to GA if the airlines are successful. An agency spokesperson promised us a statement on Monday but we didn't hear back from the FAA before our deadline late Tuesday. AOPA spokeswoman Katie Prybil said the organization is aware of the airline request and prepared a response:

AOPA's statement reads: "The airlines will be required to meet the 2020 mandate for ADS-B Out. That has not changed.   Discussion on a “grace period” applies to the position source for early GPS installations on some Part 121 certified aircraft that do not have WAAS receivers.  Those early-generation GPS receivers may experience brief outages of the required performance for ADS-B Out. Airplane manufacturers are upgrading GPS receivers across airplane models, but have said the upgraded receivers will not be available until 2018 to 2020.  Airlines for America  has requested an exemption so airlines that equipped with earlier versions of GPS (without WAAS) can transition to the upgraded equipment over an additional five-year period. The airlines are proposing that the FAA could use backup radar (if available) or an airline could reschedule a flight if GPS outages are too frequent. The FAA is currently reviewing A4A’s petition and will consider all public comments before determining whether to grant or deny the petition."

What's ironic about the airline request is that they think it will be impossible to get the 4,000-6,000 non-compliant airliners still expected to be in service in 2020 up to standard in time. There are many times that many GA aircraft facing the same deadline. At Aviation Week's annual MRO conference on April 14 in Miami, Bob Ireland, the Airlines for America (A4A) managing director-maintenance and engineering, said the issue for the old airliners is that the non-WAAS GPS source components are too old to meet the 2020 requirements and replacements are not expected to be available in time. The airlines are proposing that they install the transponders, hook them up to the old GPSs and promise to have the approved source avionics installed by 2025. The organization did not have an estimate on how many of the non-compliant airliners might still be in the air by 2025. There was another interesting note in the AvWeek story regarding the FAA's enforcement posture on ADS-B compliance. It paraphrased FAA Avionics Maintenance Branch Manager Tim Shaver as soothing the airline executives by saying the FAA "won't initially enforce the ADS-B Out rule with a 'hammer.'" Whether GA aircraft will get the same consideration was one of the questions we had hoped to have answered by the FAA.



Jim Hill
N2393C
54'180
 
Return to Forum