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Allowing Converted 182s Into Club

Allowing Converted 182s Into Club
Author Last Post
I’m not sure why you asked the question about the 182 conversion guys being admitted to the club, but if there is someone out there wondering about this issue, believe me you are welcome to join this club. One of my best friends in our organization flys a converted 182.

Like you, when we bought our first real airplane in 2009, we looked on line and found there was a 180/185 club and joined. We too hoped to meet fellow Skywagon owners and learn about our bird. A few months later, we were a bit bashful about attending a fly in that was fairly close to us, but we did. That was a good decision. In the few years we’ve been in this club, we have made life long friendships and look forward to seeing our Skywagon friends at fly ins around the country.

The best way to learn about your Bird is to attend a fly in and surround yourself with like minded Skywagon people and engage them in conversation. The repository for information on the Skywagon is housed within our membership. Too, the manual that’s available on line to members is invaluable.

I hope to get to meet you at a fly in this coming year Samuel.

Rusty Knox

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 28, 2017, at 8:04 PM, Samuel Chambers (samuelchambers@sopris.net) <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I know this thread is old, nearly all the threads on this site are.
> I just bought my first real airplane august 1 of 2017, a 53 180. I found this site and was hoping for information, and perhaps a way to learn and meet people. But, after a month or two, I rarely visit the site, there are very few new postings. I question as the end of the year nears, why be a part of the "Club"? There is very little discussion on the site, and with only 1000 or so members, I doubt that will change.
> To not let people with converted 182's join seems quite silly to me. What defines a 180/185? I thought perhaps it could be the landing gear configuration.
>
>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<<
> You have received this message as a member of: International 180/185 Club, Inc
> Change preferences (including opt-out): https://SkywagonsClub.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=13&club_id=669928
>
>
 

I'm not the President but the By Laws were amended several years ago allowing converted 182's to join as regular members.

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Arnold Villeneuve (villeneuve.arnold@rogers.com)" <mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 19:44
To: "Allowing Converted 182s Into Club" <Converted182ClubMembership@skywagons.club>
Subject: re: Allowing Converted 182s Into Club <<$185646487870$>>

This issue was solved long ago. The Club President will be able to confirm but I believe that 182’s that have been converted to a Taildragger is acceptable but an exception. But the club is still called International 180/185 Club.

 

I’ll leave it to the present to formally respond.

 

Arnold Villneuve

Webgeek.

 

From: mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com [mailto:mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com]
Sent: November-28-17 9:05 PM
To: Allowing Converted 182s Into Club <Converted182ClubMembership@skywagons.club>
Subject: re: Allowing Converted 182s Into Club <<$185645073859$>>

 

I know this thread is old, nearly all the threads on this site are.
I just bought my first real airplane august 1 of 2017, a 53 180. I found this site and was hoping for information, and perhaps a way to learn and meet people. But, after a month or two, I rarely visit the site, there are very few new postings. I question as the end of the year nears, why be a part of the "Club"? There is very little discussion on the site, and with only 1000 or so members, I doubt that will change.
To not let people with converted 182's join seems quite silly to me. What defines a 180/185? I thought perhaps it could be the landing gear configuration.

 

The 182 Land-O-Matic front landing gear as well as the lateral trim I believe are the defining characteristics that define a 182 vs 180/185.

 

From: mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com [mailto:mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com]
Sent: November-28-17 9:05 PM
To: Allowing Converted 182s Into Club <Converted182ClubMembership@skywagons.club>
Subject: re: Allowing Converted 182s Into Club <<$185645073859$>>

 

I know this thread is old, nearly all the threads on this site are.
I just bought my first real airplane august 1 of 2017, a 53 180. I found this site and was hoping for information, and perhaps a way to learn and meet people. But, after a month or two, I rarely visit the site, there are very few new postings. I question as the end of the year nears, why be a part of the "Club"? There is very little discussion on the site, and with only 1000 or so members, I doubt that will change.
To not let people with converted 182's join seems quite silly to me. What defines a 180/185? I thought perhaps it could be the landing gear configuration.

 

This issue was solved long ago. The Club President will be able to confirm but I believe that 182’s that have been converted to a Taildragger is acceptable but an exception. But the club is still called International 180/185 Club.

 

I’ll leave it to the present to formally respond.

 

Arnold Villneuve

Webgeek.

 

From: mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com [mailto:mailer@mail2.clubexpress.com]
Sent: November-28-17 9:05 PM
To: Allowing Converted 182s Into Club <Converted182ClubMembership@skywagons.club>
Subject: re: Allowing Converted 182s Into Club <<$185645073859$>>

 

I know this thread is old, nearly all the threads on this site are.
I just bought my first real airplane august 1 of 2017, a 53 180. I found this site and was hoping for information, and perhaps a way to learn and meet people. But, after a month or two, I rarely visit the site, there are very few new postings. I question as the end of the year nears, why be a part of the "Club"? There is very little discussion on the site, and with only 1000 or so members, I doubt that will change.
To not let people with converted 182's join seems quite silly to me. What defines a 180/185? I thought perhaps it could be the landing gear configuration.

 
I know this thread is old, nearly all the threads on this site are.
I just bought my first real airplane august 1 of 2017, a 53 180. I found this site and was hoping for information, and perhaps a way to learn and meet people. But, after a month or two, I rarely visit the site, there are very few new postings. I question as the end of the year nears, why be a part of the "Club"? There is very little discussion on the site, and with only 1000 or so members, I doubt that will change.
To not let people with converted 182's join seems quite silly to me. What defines a 180/185? I thought perhaps it could be the landing gear configuration.
 

Rick,

 
Well said.  I agree with most of what you say concerning our desire to "promote" the airplane, and the social aspect of the club.  Having been a member of several type-clubs, I can say that the best run club out there is the 170 club.  Anyone who likes a 170 can join and attend fly-ins. They have the best tech resources of any club I know of, but the real good stuff is only for members.
 
I've been around the 185 club since 1981 when I attended my first fly-in around my 1st birthday.  I have watched the club evolve over that time and to be honest, I haven't been to a club sponsored fly-in in several years.  I still like the club, but there is a lot of things I think could be improved, especially since my time around the 170 club.
 
Tony Lopez
 
Bob,
Thank you for clearing up some of the questions I had.

Your response about the club purpose tells me that it was (and is) intended to be a social club... created to get people with similar airplanes together, and have them enjoy similar experiences.   Frankly, I don't have the time or resources right now to join club members in various parts of the country and participate in those fly-in opportunities. Hopefully later on... but for now, I joined the club because of its valuable technical information and people's opinions.  A totally different perspective.
Given that, I would like to respond to your comment about why I feel that the stated club purpose and the ownership requirement are at odds.  The purpose says to "promote and share" ... "the enjoyment and adventure"... of flying 180/185 aircraft.

Looking at just the word "promote", (which means to further a cause, and encourage  to exist), I figured that it meant to promote the entire concept of 180/185 ownership. And I think that is best done by sharing and NOT being exclusive.  I promote my 185 every time I take a person flying with me ( the most common reaction I get for a first time Skywagon passenger is "holy smokes", when we leap off the ground on takeoff).  C-172, Cardinal, Yankee, etc. owners are really impressed.  But if we are only "promoting" the plane amongst other Skywagon owners, then I think we are missing out on the best part of sharing.

However, if the word promote means to this club membership, as I think you are saying, that it is to promote flying adventures with just like minded individuals with similar airplanes, then reading the club purpose in that light makes perfect sense, and my notion that the purpose and exclusive membership are in conflict, is wrong.

So the question is, what do the current members of the club want?   To be an exclusive social club, or be an open club which promotes Skywagons to the rest of the flying community?

Given this new website, there is a way to do a survey of the members, and I propose that it might be good to do that.  (Not now, but after the website becomes stable, and the members have gotten used to it.)

The survey would have to be carefully crafted and ask the right questions and might even need a follow on survey to clarify what is learned by the first one.  But it should help to get a sense of the overall direction that the entire membership wants.

Still reflecting on Bob Warner's reply to me, the following ideas come to mind:

1) if promoting the Skywagon in an "open way" becomes the club choice, then multiple levels of membership might be valid ( thanks to Glenn for suggesting club membership levels)...such as:
  • a) Owner members - full rights, director access, fly-in participation, full website access. [$25/yr]
  • b) Associate members - prior Skywagon members who no longer have a plane but want to hang out.  (Why even think about kicking these people out of this club).  [$20/yr]
  • c) Technical member - someone who wants or needs access to all the Forums to do maintenance on Skywagons or find out something technical.  (Not an owner, no fly-in privileges.)  [$10/yr]
  • d) Admirer member - someone who flies, rents, or just likes Skywagons can be a member at this level.  (Allowing this level of membership might just encourage someone to buy a Skywagon and become an Owner member.  This level could read all the Forums, but post only in the Airplanes for sale section.) [free]
2) if promoting the Skywagon to the general flying community is the club choice, then I think that with the Club's large cash reserve and 501(c) status (with the ability to accept tax free donations), then promoting Cessna 180/185s via a "Skywagons" scholarship to Emery Riddle (or other school) for some deserving student would help to get some younger people into flying and maybe someday even into Skywagon ownership.  How cool would that be to give an annual award to a young student with the Skywagons name associated with it !

3) Bob, based on your comments, It appears that a large part of the annual budget is for the annual convention and fly-ins, which most of the members do not participate in.  Forty to 50 attendees for the annual convention is less than 5 percent of the members.   The convention attendees are charged to participate so I figured the convention was a break-even deal.  But apparently not.  However, the club must have an income stream of about $20,000 to $25,000 per year, so  how about spending a portion of that for the other 95% of the club which doesn't go to the fly-ins?   For example, how about having a couple  (say, three) "Annual Inspection Raffles"  each year, for $1000 each.  Wherein full members would get three chances to win $1000 to help pay for their annual inspection.  This would accomplish several things.  It would possibly keep more Skywagons in the air, ...get some really good attention on keeping folks memberships active, and probably encourage some new members.  The FBO or IA who did the inspection would obviously be impressed, and when the word gets out that this club actually helps its member to keep flying, that could be pretty good advertising.

So... these are a few things that I think could be a part of an "open", non-exclusive Skywagons club that would make the club much more than a social club. (And none of which would require a name change in the club, or a different logo etc) .  I am curious what other members think.

So thank you Bob for your reply.
 
Richard,
 
Saw your multi question entry in the Forum and would like to try to address some of them if I may.
 
First, the club is owned by the membership.
Second, it is a registered 501 non-profit corporation. We are registered in Arizona because that is where it was formed.
Third, the club was created for the purpose of 180/185 owners to get together and enjoy each others company, exchanging information among  each other, and doing fly-outs.
Fourth, The Club has assets and these are used to put on our annual conventions, publish the newsletters, and cover any personal losses that a member might encounter putting on a club sponsored fly-in.  The first newsletter after our annual conventions will have the highlights of the board meeting which will include our financials.  The latest are in newsletter #234.
Fifth, Our By-Laws pretty well explain the rules and purpose of the Club.  Not exactly sure how you find our purpose and requirements for membership in conflict, but you may be reading something else into what the By-Laws say.
Sixth, As for your last comment, the Club is owned by the membership and run by the elected Officers and Directors.  These people take their volunteered jobs seriously and want to do what the majority of members would like to have done.  Just like allowing early 182s that have been converted to tail wheel configuration to join the Club.  If the membership wants to change the By-Laws, they have the power to do so.
As far as various levels of membership, I know of only one level and that is of the currently paid-up member and the Honorary Member (spouses of deceased members).  If you are talking about the Officers and Directors as being a different level than the rest of the membership, that is not accurate.  These people volunteer to do the Club's day to day jobs and should not be considered as being a different level of membership.  I can assure you it is a thankless job.
 
 Thank you for bringing up these thoughts.  I'm no expert by any means, and don't claim to be, but have been a member of the Club since 1979 and have had the opportunity to kind of see how it functions.
 
Hello

I did not see any other questions posted by you in the Forums about 180/185 aircraft. I'm sure it would have been answered in earnest if you did. Look forward to seeing your questions.
 

As a new member to the forum, I will add this...If I post a question about my 180 on this forum I get nothing. If i post it on supercub.org I get immediate and relevant answers. The only posts I get from this forum are political infighting about membership and webmaster infighting. Not thinking this is useful to most. 

 
I find the various comments fascinating.  They beg the questions of:  what is this club, what do we want from it, and should it continue as it was, or, like what happened to the website, should it be updated to something a bit more modern and fit with current times?
I propose that someone who knows, provide some basic facts and data regarding the current club, and its purpose. Based on that information, it might be easier to understand the current club, and what it should be going forward.
 For example, I'm curious:
  • Who "owns" the club?
  • Is it a business entity, such as a Corporation, or an LLC?
  • If it was created as a corporation, it most likely has articles of incorporation, including a purpose and mission statement.  What do those say?
  • On the "Home Page" of the new website, it says that the club is a "non-profit organization".  Does that mean that it is a 501(c) IRS registered organization?
  • I was told by one of the directors that the club has over $100,000 in assets, What is that money being used for; what does the budget look like, and what are the club's assets and liabilities?  (There is no annual treasure's report that I can find.)
  • Just an idea....if the club has that much money, could part of it be used for scholarships to encourage other Skywagon pilots and owners.
  • The club has a set of "Rules and Bylaws"... seven pages in Section 4 of the Club Manual, found in the Documents section under the Member Resources tab on the new website.  On page one it declares that, "The purpose of the Club is to promote and share the enjoyment and adventure of flying Cessna 180 and 185 aircraft."   (That is all it says.)
  • Also In the Bylaws is Article III, Membership, which says, "Qualifications: Membership in the Club shall be limited to all registered owners of Cessna 180/185 aircraft..."
  • Curiously, I find that the purpose of the club, and the membership requirement seriously in conflict with each other.
  • And last, food for thought:  Article XI states in part, "Additions and/or amendments requested by written petition of twenty-five (25) members of the Club’s membership must be considered at the next regular annual meeting of the Board of Directors."
I know that this is a bit of a stretch from the original question of letting 182's into the club, but I am encouraged by the idea brought up concerning various "levels" of membership.
 
I created a new Forum for this topic.
 
Well, one of the great things about the new website platform is that any MEMBER can create a new discussion Forum thread. Like the person that created the "Allowing Converted 182s Into Club" YOU yourself can create a new discussion forum. I think your suggestion is excellent. I also believe here is an great opportunity to expand the interest in our types of airplanes because as you say eventually we will be forced to sell our airplanes. Why not create demand for them by creating more interest in them. They are after all great airplanes.

While I am a volunteer webmaster for the Club these are my own personal views. You are also correct that the club has a very specific mandate and vision. Maybe most Members are satisfied with the current mandate and vision and rules of the club and that is certainly ok also. Everyone 180/185 owner has the right to decide to participate or not participate. Where and how the club goes is above my pay grade and really up to the Board of Directors. More importantly however, I believe that is also very important that the Members communicate to the Board of Directors their desires and wishes for the club. With this information the good people who make up the Board of Directors will be able to make decisions that support what the members want to do. Or they can stand by the current mandate if that is what they believe is best.

In either event, I personally hope that ALL members will use this website to promote the popularity of our aircraft and bring people together that share the same enthusiasm for the. None of us were 180/185 owners in the begining but rather became owners after some effort. We should be promoting new people to want to become owners such that these fine aircraft are always in demand.

I also remain of the personal view that Club members that sell their airplanes after a time with them should not be forsaken and forced to leave the club they once were proud members of and supportive of its efforts. Rather, they should be encouraged to stay around and share their experience. Again, I personally believe this new website will help facilitate that type of membership communication. These former owners have a lot to offer the club and we should find a way to facilitate that potential. That's just my personal opinion but it is one of the reasons I have taken on this responsibility. I want to see this club grow and prosper despite, as you rightfully pointed out, the decline in ownership of these aircraft due to the cost of ownership.

In order to help younger people get involved in these aircraft I did my part by bringing on a young partner when he was 21 years old, five years after I purchased the airplane. Everyone thought I was absolutely nuts. Today he is flying a Beaver and Caravan in northern BC as a full blown Bush Pilot. I am very proud of him. He wanted to be a Bush Pilot and my bringing him on board allowed him to build the hours he needed to accomplish his dream. Yes there were some tense moments when he needed to learn a few things but it worked out in the end. My other goal was to ensure that I had someone down the road that would be able to buy me out when the time was right. That might not happen because he is a Bush Pilot and we all know how much money they make!

Someone gave me a chance when I was young and showed me the magic of flying. I felt it was my responsibilty to do the same. Today, everytime I take up a very young person flying I let them actually fly the airplane. I also give them a plastic model kit of the airplane to build back home. It gets them really excited about flying and about the 180 they flew in. We all need to nuture the interest in the airplanes we love so that others can share in that sentiment.

To that end I sincerely hope that Club Members will use this website platform to grow the interest in our aircraft and to communicate with the Board of Directors their vision for the organization. In that way we can all work together to build a better one.
 

Arnold, 

I agree that the thread is wandering from the original question. Could we start a new thread entitled, "Should the Board of Directors allow non-owners to participate in the Club?"
 

Arnold, 

According to the mandate, it will stop for you, when you loose your medical and sell the plane. According to the mandate you would cease to have anything to offer the club.
 

Again I am new to the club but love my 180. I was thinking of a fresh thought seeing how both sides are dug in deep on this issue.

 

Why not have a two tiered membership. Invite everyone one into the first tier and only owners into tier two. It would expand the club, generate more interest, and through an indirect way expand the membership keeping the club alive. The second tier would only have voting rights allow us to keep control of it's direction. Rough first thought but you get the idea.

Just a thought.

Thanks,
Glenn
 
There are a lot of former owners who know a lot about our aircraft that we could still benefit from IF they had some way of still participating. Maybe not as full members but at least as non-members of this site they would be able to participate and share their experience and knowledge of these fine aircraft. I personally don't view that as a bad thing.
 

Funny how guys with full memberships who barely participate on these forums think the way to "save" the forums is to open the site up to non Skywagon owners. If non owners are the answer it may as well not be a Skywagon site. For those of you who enjoy the watered down generic aviation websites you have choices. I like a type-specific site that weeds out the Tcrafts and Stinsons. Not that those aren't good planes for some guys but I'm just not interested in them. Heck, there's nothing wrong with being elitist. I've worked for it all my life!  :-)

 
Thanks for commenting Bob.  Yes, I believe that was exactly the right decision the board made.  An early 182 with exactly the same parts as a Cessna 180, is actually a Cessna 180.  Personally, I would be very uncomfortable with an early Cessna 180 converted to tricycle gear, because I would view that plane as a Cessna 182.   What it was, does not determine how it is flown, but rather what it is...  I'm sure the insurance companies would agree.
 
I wish this very wise decision had been made back in the 1990's.  Converts make the best Christians they say... But since even our new web master was not even aware of this exception, I suspect there are quite a few early tail-wheel 182 to 180 conversions not aware of this new exception as well.
My understanding from alcohol fueled campfires was that their were some 182 converted to 180's that slipped through the cracks and became club members long before this rule was past. ;-)
Regards,
Greg
Quoted TextThe early straight tail 182s that have been converted to tailwheel configuration are welcomed in the Club. 
The Board of Directors passed that on a unanimous vote about 2 years ago.  To the best of my knowledge, we've had only two or three that asked to join.
 
The early straight tail 182s that have been converted to tailwheel configuration are welcomed in the Club. 
The Board of Directors passed that on a unanimous vote about 2 years ago.  To the best of my knowledge, we've had only two or three that asked to join.
 
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